John Siracusa and Merlin Mann try to figure out exactly how they got this way.



Get an ad-free version of the show, plus a monthly extended episode.

Join for $7/month Join for $70/year

When you become a Relay FM member, you’ll get access to exciting bonus content while directly supporting your favorite hosts. In addition to the bonus content for this podcast, your support comes a bunch of extra benefits, including access to the Members Discord, members-only podcasts, exclusive wallpapers, a monthly newsletter, and more!

If you want to purchase a membership as a gift for someone else, click here.